Combat rules LLWS playoffs

[Big Hitter]

Looks like every team is a part of Team Combat. I saw some real bombs hit with these bats today.

Why arn't these fences in little league at the 230-240 range instead of 195-205? These kids can fart and blow it over the fence.:)

I would say the SoCal has the best shot at the title?

[cps]

So far I have seen more homeruns with Combats than anything else in the LLWS. I did see one team with a lot of CF4s and they were hitting it out with them.

The So Cal team is HUGE. Isn’t the one player 6’2’’ and 205 pounds? They looked to be hitting it about 250 plus feet with ease.

[tigerdan]

I believe they moved them back two years ago to 225' (not that it matters for some of the kids).
One of the interesting stats and reasons for moving them back was that in the 20 years prior to last year there had been 521 homeruns and only 36 triples ...

[Union-LL-AA-dad]

Are those 2-1/4 or 2-5/8 barrel Combats being used in the LLWS? I've been keeping a running tally of bats used in LLWS, and in the 3 regional final games I've watched so far Combat B1/B2/Virus and Easton Stealth IMX/Stealth Speed seem to be in the lead. Louisville (Triton/Exogrid) and Demarini (CF4, F2, Voodoo) seem to be distant 3rd/4th.

[tom2p]

Are those 2-1/4 or 2-5/8 barrel Combats being used in the LLWS?
.
Williamsport LL reg bat size is 2 1/4.
.
.
Yes - they moved the fences back a couple of years ago (or so). I did not realize the fences were moved back to 225 - I thought it might be 210 or so. But any change was a good change because this was well overdue. Unfortunately, the infield dimensions are still too small - especially the distance from pitchers mound to home plate - 46 ft not enough.
.
46 ft distance especially not enough when a 6'2" 205 lb kid is on the mound. And hopefully for his sake, someone will not put one of his 70+ mph fastballs straight back at his head.
.
I cringe when I see a 6'2" kid on the mound - at 12 yrs old - because the kid has such an advantage at this age/level. Many of the other kids have not started their growth spurts yet at this age.
.
I also cringe when I see a kid throwing breaking balls at this age. A good breaking ball is absolutely an advantage at this age/level - but at what price ?
.

[tigerdan]

Most of these monster kids are what I call extra year players. They got to play an extra year when Little League changed the age cutoff from July 31st to April 30th.I'd at least like to see them move the mound back to 50' and AT LEAST 65' bases. 50/70 with leadoff like Pony would be even better, but there are probably way too many fields across the country that could not afford to do it in a timely manner. I think it also does a disservice to the kids ... most of these kids who got the extra year are in 7th grade ... their peers are already playing a higher level of ball than Little League.

As for bats ... as much my kid loves his Combats (he has had four in both 2-1/4 & 2-5/8) I am very interested in that Easton LSS2 (I believe) -9 bat. Getting a big boy to get a 32/23 around on even a 60+ mph fastball will send the ball rocketing.

[D_wats]

I also cringe when I see a kid throwing breaking balls at this age. A good breaking ball is absolutely an advantage at this age/level - but at what price ?

If you're talking injuries most of the data I see coming out shows that a curve puts just slightly more strain on the arm than a change-up, and not as much as a really hard thrown fastball. Most seem to be agreeing that overuse of the arm is the biggest factor in pitching related injuries, not the curve.

As for the size of some of these kids, good for them. How many 6' 8" 300 lb baseball players do you see? I read post around the 'net about these kids throwing 70+, or hitting the ball 300 ft, then look at the sizes, do they really have a future in baseball? Football, basketball maybe, but when a kid is 5' 2" and 150-175 lbs as a 10/11, well.....

My son cringes when I tell him a tournament is LL rules. He'd much rather be playing on the bigger, shaved infield parks, with open rules. Those big kids on that little field, and no lead off ect, that just doesn't seem like baseball to me. A 11/12/13 yr old hitting a ball out of those parks really isn't that impressive in this day and age.

[tom2p]

Maybe I would think differently if I were the parent - but I don't believe my kid would be playing on a LL team/field if he was 6'2" 205 lbs.
.
Many of the 'older' kids in our LL org are at a disadvantage when they move up to middle school ball because they go from the tiny LL field to the full size field - must use -3 bats - and have little or no experience on a larger field or with heavier big barrel bats. Some do get some experience on a bigger field in the fall before they play middle school ball the following spring - but the kids in this category that play football do not.
.

[tom2p]

If you're talking injuries most of the data I see coming out shows that a curve puts just slightly more strain on the arm than a change-up, and not as much as a really hard thrown fastball. Most seem to be agreeing that overuse of the arm is the biggest factor in pitching related injuries, not the curve.
.
Overuse is a factor for sure - but every top baseball person that I have come into contact with has recommended against breaking balls at this age.
.
Our LL org and advanced travel teams have had the luxury of meeting with a number of current and ex- major league players and managers over the years - including current Detroit Tigers manager Jim Leyland. Most are very adament about no breaking balls in LL baseball. According to Leyland and a few others: not until the kid can grow facial hair.
.

[Big Hitter]

Any pitchers on my team throws a curve he's done for the night. We've told them that from the first day of practice but they still try to sneak them in.
They can wait til there 14 but will be monitored on how many.

[D_wats]

It wasn’t the curve, per se, that put Alden at risk. One of Andrews and Fleisig’s later studies proved, counterintuitively, that a properly thrown curveball places no more stress on the arm than a fastball. The problem is throwing it with good mechanics, which becomes increasingly difficult as a pitcher — particularly a teenage pitcher — grows weary. Another of their studies produced this startling figure: By the age of 20, a baseball player who has regularly pitched past the point of fatigue is 36 times as likely to need elbow or shoulder surgery as one who has not.

Am J Sports Med. 2009 May 17.

A Biomechanical Comparison of the Fastball and Curveball in Adolescent Baseball Pitchers.

Nissen CW, Westwell M, Ounpuu S, Patel M, Solomito M, Tate J.

Connecticut Children's Medical Center.

BACKGROUND: The incidence of shoulder and elbow injuries in adolescent baseball players is rapidly increasing. One leading theory about this increase is that breaking pitches (such as the curveball) place increased moments on the dominant arm and thereby increase the risk of injury. HYPOTHESIS: There is no difference in the moments at the shoulder and elbow between fastball and curveball pitches in adolescent baseball pitchers. STUDY DESIGN: Controlled laboratory study. METHODS: Thirty-three adolescent baseball pitchers with a minimum of 2 years of pitching experience underwent 3-dimensional motion analysis using reflective markers aligned to bony landmarks. After a warm-up, pitchers threw either a fastball or curveball, randomly assigned, from a portable pitching mound until 3 appropriate trials were collected for each pitch technique. Kinematic and kinetic data for the upper extremities, lower extremities, thorax, and pelvis were collected and computed for both pitch types. Statistical analysis included both the paired sample t test and mixed model regression. RESULTS: There were lower moments on the shoulder and elbow when throwing a curveball versus when throwing a fastball. As expected, speed for the 2 pitches differed: fastball, 65.8 +/- 4.8 mph; and curveball, 57.7 +/- 6.2 mph (P < .001). Maximal glenohumeral internal rotation moment for the fastball was significantly higher than for the curveball (59.8 +/- 16.5 N.m vs 53.9 +/- 15.5 N.m; P < .0001). Similarly, the maximum varus elbow moment for the fastball was significantly higher than for the curveball (59.6 +/- 16.3 N.m vs 54.1 +/- 16.1 N.m; P < .001). The wrist flexor moment was greater in the fastball, 8.3 +/- 3.6 N.m, than in the curveball, 7.8 +/- 3.6 N.m (P < .001), but the wrist ulnar moment was greater in the curveball, 4.9 +/- 2.0 N.m, than in the fastball, 3.2 +/- 1.5 N.m (P < .001). Relatively minor motion differences were noted at the shoulder and elbow throughout the pitching motion, while significant differences were seen in forearm and wrist motion. The forearm remained more supinated at each point in the pitching cycle for the curveball but had less overall range of motion (62 degrees +/- 20 degrees ) than with the fastball (69 degrees +/- 17 degrees ) (P < .001), and the difference in the forearm pronation and supination moment between the pitches was not significant (P = .104 for pronation and P = .447 for supination). The wrist remained in greater extension during the fastball from foot contact through ball release but did not have significantly different total sagittal range of motion (53 degrees +/- 11 degrees ) when compared with the curveball (54 degrees +/- 15 degrees ) (P = .91). CONCLUSION: In general, the moments on the shoulder and elbow were less when throwing a curveball than when throwing a fastball. In each comparison, the fastball demonstrated higher moments for each individual pitcher for both joints. CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The findings based on the kinematic and kinetic data in this study suggest that the rising incidence of shoulder and elbow injuries in pitchers may not be caused by the curveball mechanics. Further evaluation of adolescent and adult baseball pitchers is warranted to help determine and subsequently reduce the risk of injury.

Just a couple of articles I've found about curve vs fastball.

So if this holds up then taking the curve away from a pitcher makes him beat the batter with the fastball, and most young pitches are going to assume the way to do that is to throw it hard, thus putting even more stress on the arm.

[g-mc]

Have to agree with D_wats on this one. As long as the kid isn't fatigued and throws it correctly, a curve ball thrown properly is no worse on the arm than a fast ball.

[Mid-Ohio Blaze]

SO.........combats are back with a vengence after the exile imposed by Easton and Wilson last year holding up the process of getting the b-2's approved by LL. I think the proof is in the pudding, these teams use combat because they help the players hit well. My team used combats exclusively. The kids swear by them.

[g-mc]

You just can't beat the Combat. Is there any reporting on the whole Easton and Wilson ordeal that you cited or is it just rumor. I'm not doubting you whatsoever. I'd just be interested in reading about it.

[tigerdan]

I noticed that Wilson/Demarini are not official sponsors this year ... The two main are Easton and Dick's sporting goods along with other non-sport related sponsors.

[ntoul]

from today signonsandiego.com

<<<The freebie file
Save for gloves, the Park View players left their equipment behind because they're receiving free gear from sporting goods companies.
The haul has been impressive. Louisville Slugger supplied each player with an aluminum bat. Easton kicked in a bat and cleats. Wilson tossed in another bat. Each player receives a helmet, batting gloves and wrist bands. Two sets of catcher's equipment are given to the team.
“It's like Christmas in August,” said pitcher/outfielder Kiko Garcia.

It's the swing
Before collecting their schwag, the players were sitting outside a batting cage, excitedly talking about the bats they were about to receive.
“The bats don't matter,” said Garcia, indicating it's the player swinging the bat that counts.
Of Garcia's 14 hits at the West Region tournament, 12 went for home runs.>>>


--must be some kind of pressure to use the "free" equipment

[cps]

It will be interesting to see what they end up using in the games....

[D_wats]

I think the proof is in the pudding, these teams use combat because they help the players hit well. My team used combats exclusively. The kids swear by them.

You just can't beat the Combat.

I don't know...

Our Combat B2 cracked almost as soon as it was broken in. Until then it had OK pop...

As 2 1/4" bats go the Combat just wasn't in the same league as our 07/08 'zilla's. Bigger sweet spot no doubt, better results with poorer contact. But when the ball was nailed with either bat the 'zilla was in a league by its self. I was willing to give up some distance in favor of the Combat in hopes it would be more durable, unfortunately that didn't turn out to be the case.

[Mid-Ohio Blaze]

We had 13 combats on our team, ranging from all models and diameters. Not a single cracked bat. We did have a couple crack last year but not this year. The team won the Triple Crown Summer Nationals and a state championship with these bats, scoring over 570 runs in 56 games. Great bats this year, they really performed well for our boys.

[dolphindan1]

They are finally catching on her in SC...My oldest had a Virus 2 years ago and a B1 this pastyear...it ended up being a team bat...Now I see them at travel tourney and at rec games....At tryout today for 10 team and kid came with his brand new B2...the dad said he had been reading alot on the net...I told him they are great bat and my oldest loves them...I did however tell him he should have saved a few bucks and got the B1...Plus he got this kid a 30/20...comes almost to his elbow...I told his dad he may struggle with it with hard pitching...he did it well today at the tryout....I also told the dad the more he hits with it the hotter it gets...I dont think he believed me...:)

[D_wats]

We had 13 combats on our team, ranging from all models and diameters. Not a single cracked bat. We did have a couple crack last year but not this year. The team won the Triple Crown Summer Nationals and a state championship with these bats, scoring over 570 runs in 56 games. Great bats this year, they really performed well for our boys.

Yeah well, just my luck I guess..

Bats we've had so far, '07 zilla/dented, cracked, '08 'zilla/ dented, flattened, '08 Sr lg CF3/cracked, '09 B2/cracked.

Haven't used them as cage bats, or team bats, left them in the car, or hit water logged balls. They've all been good bats, just not last even the first year, well the '07 zilla has, but it would be thrown out if inspected.

[cps]

It looks like some of the teams are starting to use their new freebee bats. I saw a lot of new Eastons being used by teams that were previously hitting Combats.

[Big Hitter]

Chula Vista is going to be a top team 7 Home Runs tonight 15-0 with 18 hits.

[Mid-Ohio Blaze]

You are right, the freebee bats are out in force. Me personally, I would not let my team change bats for any reason during a national championship, regardless of what free bat was being offered. New bats are not broken in as well, (composite.) 2 years ago, Combat became a million dollar company because of how their bats did in the LLws. Now wilson and easton are using that strategy as the primary sponsors in an effort to slow Combat down.

[dazed and confused]

I noticed there were more B2 bats that any other in the LLWS until they got to Williamsport. Since they started the Williamsport games I have not seen one B2, I am still seeing B1, I wonder if LL is not allowing the B2.

[jayhawk]

Iowa vs Washington, sunday morning 8-23-09. Combat B2 hit a double and drove in 2 runs. Next batter, uses the combat B2 and sends the curve ball out over right field fence for a home run! The score was 3-0 fro Wa., but after those 2 hits, Iowa took the lead 4-3. This is the bottom of the 5th.

[tom2p]

We had 13 combats on our team, ranging from all models and diameters. Not a single cracked bat. We did have a couple crack last year but not this year.
.
Yeah well, just my luck I guess..
.
No - apparently not just your luck. While there is no denying the impressive performance, the reliability is poor. A quick search of reviews on the bat reviews site reveals a high rate of failure.
.
.

[cps]

You have to give it to Easton as they are getting a lot of exposure for their new bat. They are getting a lot of good TV time AND the bat is performing. I have seen a few B2's and B1's, but the new Easton looks like the bat of choice at Williamsport.

[tom2p]

2 years ago, Combat became a million dollar company because of how their bats did in the LLws. Now wilson and easton are using that strategy as the primary sponsors in an effort to slow Combat down.
.
Wison/Demarini has been involved in one way or another with the LL World Series (and the College World Series) for a number of years. The DeMarini F2 was the 'bat to have' around 2005/2006 - when the Hawaii LL team used them in the Little League World Series.
.

[jayhawk]

Canada vs Taipei, China Sunday 8-23-09

Canada uses B1 and B2's. China uses Easton.

[jayhawk]

Taipei just sent a ball over both fences for arguably one of the farthest home runs at Volunteer Park. It was an easton but I dont know what model. The boys number is 19. It just happened on espn.

Okay, it looks like an old Easton Stealth with a silver barrel.


Taipei sent another one over the fence and it is from the new Easton model. Dont know which model though.

[Hookem74]

They're also using a 2001 Easton Connexion Z-core. It's the same bat my godson used last year that I've been preaching about.The great ones never die out!
http://www.ballgloves.com/gifs/lt2z.jpg


I know we are seeing a lot of balls being hit out but you also have to consider the "hitter". These kids are just bigger stronger and more athletic.

[jayhawk]

Hookem, is that they one where it had gold lettering? I was wondering what that was. (Well the letters looked gold on my tv). It looked like the demarini/nike type where the barrel has a lip at transfer area to the handle. Hope that sounded right.

[Hookem74]

There is a goldish reflection off the silver lettering but the bat is dark gray/silver/red. Rubber connector between the handle & barrel....Connexions are basically older model Stealth's. Same technology just different alloy & composite material.

[jayhawk]

Thanks Hookem! I am watching Chula Vista vs. Peabody right now. These pitchers are great!

[D_wats]

Guys, my son hit his first HR out of a LL park as an 8 yr old. Hit numerous ones out as a 9, and him and another player hit balls out this year as 10's. These 11/12/13 yr old kids should be hitting them out, with a broom stick.

Get a grip....

[Mid-Ohio Blaze]

I agree, every player on our 11u team hits it out of 240 ft fences. They hit pop ups out of LL fields. If you are familiar with this age group then you sit there and shake your head at the absurdidy (sp?)of it all.

[jayhawk]

D_wats
Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Guys, my son hit his first HR out of a LL park as an 8 yr old. Hit numerous ones out as a 9, and him and another player hit balls out this year as 10's. These 11/12/13 yr old kids should be hitting them out, with a broom stick.

Get a grip....

I dont know.........those balls being pitched were equivalent to 98mph in the MLB. Thats fast in my book! Also their changeups and movement on their balls werent that shabby either! Opinions vary though.

[glgto]

I dont know that combat is king at this series there are a ton of eastons and Demarini cf4's and even some f3's.
I agree with the broomstick comment. fence is short for the speed of pitches.:p

[g-mc]

I'll probably catch crap for saying this on a bat forum, but I would like to see the fence left at the dimensions it's at and have the kids switch to wood.:eek:

[jayhawk]

oops, my bad. I forgot everyones kid here is over 100lbs and taller than 5' at age 8. And uses wood to hit 245feet daily homeruns.:D

No need to cruise in a bat forum, just go to your local Wally World and pick up a broom for less thatn 6 bucks. :eek:

Me, I am impressed because my son doesnt hit homeruns out of the park and neither does his team. My son is 4'6" 60lbs at 10. (smaller than any kid on tv llws that I saw). But he gets on base and always scores with his speed.:D

I guess when I see a well hit ball, I cheer, doesnt matter what team(in real life). On tv, I still cheer.

Go kids!!!!!!!!:)

[g-mc]

Me, I am impressed because my son doesnt hit homeruns out of the park and neither does his team. My son is 4'6" 60lbs at 10. (smaller than any kid on tv llws that I saw). But he gets on base and always scores with his speed.

Actually, you just described my oldest son. He is about the same size as Japan's shortstop. He hits for average and is terror on the base paths, but I still love to watch kids use wood bats.

[Mid-Ohio Blaze]

The reason the eastons and demarinis are so prevalent is because they are giving them to the boys for free if they use them. They are the primary sponsors of the event and it looks bad if all the teams wont use their bats. It is what it is.

[KevinOK]

"I forgot everyones kid here is over 100lbs and taller than 5' at age 8. And uses wood to hit 245feet daily homeruns."

I'd enjoy watching an 8 year old crank the ball 245 feet, of all the games involving that age group I've never seen one come close to 80 yards of carry.

Or for that matter, any 9 year olds.

And now that I think of it, not sure I've ever seen 10 year olds hit a ball with 80+ yards of carry.

[D_wats]

"I forgot everyones kid here is over 100lbs and taller than 5' at age 8. And uses wood to hit 245feet daily homeruns."

I'd enjoy watching an 8 year old crank the ball 245 feet, of all the games involving that age group I've never seen one come close to 80 yards of carry.

Or for that matter, any 9 year olds.

And now that I think of it, not sure I've ever seen 10 year olds hit a ball with 80+ yards of carry.

The point I was making went to the whole "look, he hit it out with a Combat", "Oh look, he hit it out with a Easton". These are very good 11,12,13 yr old players, playing on a small field, if they make good contact the balls gone, regardless of the bat. They are just overpowering the field.

My son hit his first out of a 200' park, which was LL standard at the time. Funny, he'd play on the same size field as an 12 yr old as he did as a 7 yr old, if we were to continue with LL, which it appears our TT isn't, thank god. Also notable, he hit more HR's as a 9 than he did as a 10 this year. His shots were liners into the wall as opposed to loping flies like last year, and that's just fine by me, given he had 23 k's in 90 at bats last year as opposed to 10 in over 200 at bats this year.

HR's aren't all that.....

And now that I think of it, not sure I've ever seen 10 year olds hit a ball with 80+ yards of carry.

You ever get bored make a road trip and I'll introduce you to one who can, that and more. Put one out at the end of the year with a -5 30" EXO (that's a 10 yr old swinging a 25 oz bat) ;)

Of course I'm well aware that given the way kids mature (the whole puberty thing) he might not even make the HS team, so I'm just enjoying the moment. :cool:

[Mid-Ohio Blaze]

I have seen a few kids that could hit a ball that far as 10 year olds , but not many. We play at the highest level and I would guess I saw maybe 6-7 kids that had that kind of power at that age. However, at age 11 were seeing kids hit it 290-300 feet. I know this because it was done on 290 foot softball fields. I have a few of those kids and I have had a few of those shots hit against us. At 12 they would make a mockery of the game if they played LL on a 200 foot fence. That was kind of where the conversation was going.

[KevinOK]

We play at the highest level here in OK, USSSA triple-A. I've seen my son and a few other hit a couple 70 yards of carry but on HS size fields so they were just deep triples by the time the other team chased down and relayed the ball back in. Having said that those were far and few between.

We had once extra small league field that had a few sent out. The equilizer on that field was that they had the pitchers mound up 3 feet closer (43') instead of (46') so the pitchers really had the advantage. If the mound would of been 46 it would of been a HR derby no doubt.

[runningeagle]

Dear Tom2p,
Yes tradition baseball OPINION was that curve balls lead to arm injuries, but recently it was studied, and it was found that there was NO LINK in both college age and little league age kids between curve balls and arm injuries . The only link to arm injuries was pitch count, and it even seemed to show that pitches thrown harder (the fastball) were more likely to lead to injury. Some doctors that specialize in biomechanics, however, are still skeptical, most notable James Andrews, because there seems to be less support at the elbow when throwing a curve, but again, when it was studied, the research didn't back it up. Although I personally think the jury is still out in regard to curve balls, my point in writing this is that traditional baseball "opinion", that is not backed up with objective, non biased, scientific study, is often wrong. This is why I loved the book "between the numbers" by the baseball prospectus people. It points out numerous instances when traditional baseball opinion is totally wrong, and if you haven't read it yet I highly recommend it.
(If you want the link to the actual scientific papers let me know and I will provide them.

[tom2p]

( kevinok )

I would not permit my kid to pitch from 43 ft away (at that level). Yes - the pitchers would have an advantage - until one kid would line one back at the pitcher's head and it could be disaster.
.

[tom2p]

( runningeagle and others )

Yes - agree. I am aware of stats that have shown no link to arm injuries and curve balls.
.
However, I question the data (used for these studies) and feel it may be incomplete and/or suspect The conclusions are only as good as the supporting data.
.
So I (also) feel the 'jury is out' - and therefore currently lean toward 'traditional baseball opinion' - over what I feel may be unproven conclusions.

[D_wats]

With all due respect Tom....

They hooked up sensors/reflectors (or whatever) and used high-speed cameras to record arm movement during different pitches. What could be "suspect" about that...

In talking to people in my area about this, and providing links, I've come to the conclusion it's very difficult for people to change their mind/give up long held beliefs.

[tom2p]

The data may be suspect because it probably does not include all/the kids that had to give up pitching due to arm injuries - kids that threw breaking balls. But again (as it has been pointed out) - those same kids could have sufferred from overuse and from overthrowing.
.
But, I also have my doubts on the long held beliefs concerning this issue. I also believe the number of pitcher arm injuries are primarily from overuse. The kids that usually throw a breaking ball are the more accomplished pitchers that pitch the most - and therefore are probably more succeptible to injury.
.
I can attest the long held beliefs are still current and held strong. My oldest kid and youngest kid both attended 'clinics' held by MLB staff members and current MLB pitchers - one clinic held approx four years ago and one held just a few weeks ago (at a birthday party held at a baseball field - party had to wait until tourn baseball was over). Every player and staff member told the kids the same thing - to forget the breaking balls until they were older.
.

[don.prince]

Tom2p,
I sit on the fence on the subject of the curveball...I have a photo from the LLWS of my son throwing one and you can see the torque put on the elbow. But I also have a photo of him throwing a fastball and the strain on the elbow is pretty extensive there too. I do believe that overuse is a much greater problem than whether or not a kid throws a curveball, however, I also think that a coach should be responsible and limit the number of curveballs that are thrown...just in case.